I know I jumped in on this discussion too, but I suppose we should follow the spirit of this thread and wait until the buy is done. It could be ok in the end.
When a big GB like this with a known community member goes awry, it’s bound to have a chilling effect. It’s a lose-lose-lose situation for Jaxx, the participants, and the community, I think. So, I hope it does work out and come to a good conclusion for all parties.
Now that we have this thread, I think more often about the larger question of whether the GB model is still optimal for larger buys/players in the community; or whether there is something out there (in another field? hobby?) that makes more sense for that middle ground between established business and community project.
Blaming the victims for being angry is not a good look.
If you collect thousands of dollars for a group buy you automatically open yourself up to criticism.
He isn’t Greenwald designs or Woodkeys (another well liked community member until he ghosted), but he also hasn’t provided enough evidence that he actually received a full shipment of damaged boards. I do believe he intends to try and finish the group buy, but does he actually have the time and money to finish it himself? We will see.
Technically I’m a “victim” in this situation, so I’m speaking to/for myself, and I’m NOT angry (it’s a fine look). Criticism in this situation is warranted, of course, it would be better if it erred on the side of constructive. I get where you are coming from, and it may turn out that Jaxx is a no good liar and I am an actual victim. But until that day comes, I won’t be the asshole who makes a YouTube channel to shame a GB runner and be so reductive of the events surrounding the buy for laughs. Maybe I’m not pessimistic enough.
For GMK Sumi I bought the base kit, Rama artisan, and deskmat.
Took a big L on that one, but my tastes have changed drastically since then. Call me boring, but it’s all beige for me these days. JC Studio is my savior.
Lol, who knows how many there are. I am personally in 3 group buys that are MIA for over 3 years now that aren’t on that list. Had a few in the past as well that aren’t there.
I have to admit I am far too shallow into this hobby (financially speaking… time is something else) to have seriously considered joining a group buy, but I’m curious how the flow is supposed to work. The last little spark of lawyer in me would love to have a primer on this. It’s really disheartening to see people who enjoy similar things to me getting their hearts broken over and over again, and if GBs die, how am I going to get new XDA clones a year after the GMK set is produced?!?!?!
Would anyone walk me through it? I feel like I’m missing some steps here.
Designer comes up with new keycaps/keyboard/etc. and gets good response to an IC
They either set up a company (if they don’t have one) to be the “vendor,” or else they partner with an existing vendor
Vendor leverages experience with online retail, logistics, and relationships with manufacturers.
Vendor collects payment from GB customers, but on what terms?
Vendor presumably uses funds from GB to refine and proof the design with manufacturers, pay invoices for the product run, and distribute the items the final mile to customers.
Seems like the issues are that there is no guarantee that the funds paid for a GB will be set aside in any meaningful way in case the product cannot be delivered for some reason, and the worst vendors are sort of judgment proof because they will have dissolved, possibly even legally. Legal system is of little use due to the amounts in play. CC chargeback is a possibility, but due to the assumed risk and the unusual nature of the transaction, they are reluctant to advocate strongly for the buyers.
Doesn’t seem like there’s a silver bullet, but what ideas are out there? I’ve seen mod PSAs, and threads that call out bad actors, but it seems like there’s a lack of infrastructure on the front end, and that keeps GBs risky, to say nothing of the times where they still ship, but long after the endorphin rush of a new find wears off. Have any designers or vendors looked into escrow services or the like? Even just contractually committing to some transparency might be file down some of the edges. A group buy having an issue tracker of some sort seems doable.
I’ll post a thought I had in one of the Geekhack threads on the situation with Mechs & Co:
rmendis, a moderator for the MechMarket discord, brought up in this TaehaTypes video the idea of a centralized and voluntary code of conduct or set of standards for vendors. I think something like that would be a great step forward for the hobby and a huge net positive for everyone. A standard of conduct, perhaps denoted by some sort of branding (something akin to B Corporation branding), could help customers distinguish between vendors that are willing to publicly commit to things like transparency, consistent communication, & responsible business practices, and those that are not interested in the scruples of such commitments.
Interesting new addition to the community is the MK Vendor Trust and Safety System. Don’t envy the people who have to keep up with it. Quite complicated. Also, no mention of input from Keebtalk anywhere, so I guess we get all the scammers on here now
It’s fine, actually. We are the only community I know of that is inherently streamlined to fight scammers and bad vendors. Smaller group of regular users with experience on a platform actually built for discussion and documentation. Go, us.
But perhaps we should think about pinning the Vendor Trust and Safety document somewhere on here? Maybe on the vendor list that’s here?:
this is about me getting a refund for the Keystone keyboard - I had to joined the Kono Discord server to make some noise and then Kono CS decided to bother to reply after a casual 3.5 months ghosting with a canned “We appreciate your patience”. And it seems Kono can’t even get a Paypal account up and working at all after 4+ months (Aug 2023 to Jan 2024).
At this point I’m not sure where lies the incompetence but I’ve lost all faith in Input Club and Kono and all those behind them @lekashman@HaaTa. I just want my damn refund in my damn Paypal account, is that too much to ask for?
I am tempted to do a chargeback just to force the dude to communicate with me…
This is where I am at though… there are a lot of vendors, but I am starting to cross a ton off my list just cause they are shady. I believe it is just cause they are overwhelmed, but that still.
Ah, the keystone! I too purchased one as soon as the board was available. I just assume it will never happen, or if it does it will be a few more years and not a great result.
Completely put off by the project updates (or lack of). 1/2 a year to hear pretty much the same story every update.
@pixelpusher@djmantis Finally after making all the noises in Kono discord and here in Keebtalk I have received my refund through Paypal - Kono had to ask a 3rd party to send the money to me and Kono will reimburse that 3rd party separately. Just glad that finally I can stop caring about it altogether.
